LGBTQ+ Inclusion in International Schools | A Conversation with Ian Timbrell

We all know the meaning of LGBTQ plus but in international schools, which are diverse by their very nature Discussing these themes can feel like a cultural nightmare My guest today breaks down how you can make your school more inclusive wherever you're based Hey everyone, I'm Shane Leaning welcome to global leaders the chart topping leadership podcast for international schools I'm an organizational coach and in this show I get to know the teachers leaders and innovators making a difference in education across the world Before I jump into the conversation today and delighted that this episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association stay tuned to learn more about their upcoming conference So my guest today is Ian Timbrell Ian is the founder of mortal flags and rainbows Which is a not-for-profit organization that aims to make all schools and colleges more inclusive spaces His work has been highlighted in inspection case studies and his former primary school is set to be the first in Wales to receive the proud trusts rainbow award He's also an adoptive father to his ten-year-old son and actively shares his thoughts on LGBTQ plus and education on X or Twitter So let's jump straight in There is definitely a case here of almost a knowledge gap And if we think of our own education when we were in school It was something that wasn't talked about because in many countries when we went to school It might be even been illegal. So for example, I went to school in the UK There was a law here called section 28, which actually made it illegal to talk about homosexuality in school in 2003 And that is the case across many places in the world whether it was illegal or whether it just culturally wasn't done and So many of our school leaders our teachers haven't got their own education to fall back on So I always use the analogy of maths teaching, you know When people qualify teaching they can think back to their maths and go all that was rubbish and also oh that was amazing But we've all got a sense of what maths teaching should be like and what we should be learning about But with LGBT inclusion, we haven't because most of us didn't have anything So we have this huge knowledge gap. So that's one reason we you know, we just haven't got that to fall back on But also we are in a place where although in many many countries LGBTQ plus inclusion has improved and is more culturally accepted There are many places where actually it's not and there is still split of opinion And the problem is those voices are often the loudest ones particularly on social media who are critical of these things They absolutely don't present the minority. We know from studies all around the world that actually Most people are accepting of LGBTQ plus identities, but they're not the loudest voices And so there is that fear that will be piled on or get complaints or be in the news Because of a few voices I think I found what really interesting about what you said is about us reflecting on our own Education as well and kind of what we expect and what we expect to cover in schools Do people sometimes bring to you or this isn't for school school is for teaching these things This isn't for school. Do you ever get that kind of talk when you're working with schools?

Yeah, absolutely And the thing that I often get taught is school is for teaching facts And I laugh at that because I go, okay So do we never talk about our opinions about books or our opinions on world events, you know, it's absolute rubbish But also people's identity is it's no different talking about race It's no different talking about disability because me being gay is not a choice It's who I am. It's part of my identity And I think it also comes from the misconception that you have to do what I call in inverted commas the gay lesson You know, we're going to do lesson about the gays today and that's not what it should be But what it's about is not being afraid if we're okay to talk about if a man is married to a woman It should be okay to mention that a person in history or a person in the world is married to a man It's not about deliberately talking about these role models sometimes But it's about not shying away from the fact that these people exist Yes, that makes a lot of a lot of sense to me And to come back on what you said about the culture might not be right It was interesting you reflecting on you growing up and there being a law that meant you can't talk about it To address kind of the elephant in the room. I guess the audience of my podcast are international schools That's around the world in diverse cultures and in which some cultures those laws still exist, right? That's the reality is that there are certain things you maybe can't talk about From when we've spoken before and from some of the work you do In terms of like steps going towards that it doesn't have to be starting with talking about sexuality explicitly Though does it when you're bringing inclusivity into your school? Would you agree with that? Is that somewhere where you think you could start?

I have this argument. So I don't consider myself an activist. Okay. I'm not an LGBT activist at all I'm a teacher that that's my background And there are some people who are activists who would say oh We have to talk about the vocabulary as soon as they go into school because it demystifies it and de-stigmatizes it Which is partly true. Yeah, but i'll give the example of my son. So I have a son with another man

We adopted him he learned the word gay when he was eight because he never needed that word So this argument over oh we have to talk about sex to be able to talk about people with two mums and two dads Just it's rubbish really because all he needed to know is that there are different types of families out there And that's why i'd say, you know with children particularly until about age seven or eight That's what we need to teach them is that there are different families in the world Some families have a mum and dad some families have two moms and two dads some families have one mum Some families have one dad and there's no need to talk about sex. There's no need to talk about sexual orientation on there We're just talking about parents and children will just leave it as that. They're just happy of that That's all they need to know and that's where i'd say the start of those conversations is is literally about families I guess because the reality is like with families for example, they're gonna come across it in their real life Or on the internet or wherever it is. They're gonna come across it. So

It should be something that we're thinking about in schools I mean, what could that look like? I know some of the leaders are going to be thinking, okay Well, we've got early years. We've got primary schools. Like we want to think about these things What does that look like practically for a school?

I mean for me the most powerful tool in all of this inclusion is books books is such a magical Window and mirror into life. It's funny. I especially when you talk to primary teachers, right? Primary teachers eyes lighter than you start talking about books because we all love them And I say there's two types of books. So there's one type of books, you know

I class as sort of textbooks, which are like books called two mums or books called two dads Personally, I don't like them because what they do they're textbooks They're about teaching it but they also point out that it's something that's unusual or different or not normal I prefer stories So one of my favorite ones in early years at the moment is called the rainbow saurus And it's wonderful and it's literally about a dinosaur. It's learning about colors It's literally going through this dinosaur who's different colors a bit like elmer But this character happens to have two dads. There is no mention of it in the story. It is not part of the story It's literally only in the imagery and that's usualizing it because we don't always have to make a point of these things It's not about a teaching point But if you've got a child in the room who's got two dads They are then seeing a story with two dads and that then you know Almost validate their family to make it feel like actually my family is seen as well And for the other children who don't have same-sex parents For them understand that there are different families in the world and and to me That's how we create tolerance is right from the beginning Using those type of books where we see different types of families. Yeah, I really like that

I guess it's implicit, isn't it? You're just trying to ensure that the materials you're giving to children match the reality of the world out there So that they're feeling that and it goes back to what you said about If we're thinking about these things we have to teach a gay lesson like you said It's like, you know, and and that's not the case. There's a game today. This is what a gay looks like That's why it's my picture of the lesson is and I can only imagine we don't do that for a straight person Why would we do it for a gay person? Again, it's similar with disability, you know

I talk and a lot of my work is intersectional So although primarily my focus is LGBT inclusion, I talk about all diversity in my work And I say the same with race, you know We wouldn't have a black lesson or a white lesson But what you do in your books is make sure that there are a range of ethnicities and races and religions and same disabilities You know, I try to make sure that schools have a range of visible and non-visible disabilities You know, so one of my favorite ones that I read at the moment called don't hug dug Which is a boy with autism who doesn't like hugging because he doesn't like physical contact and it's for nursery reception And it's such a lovely story about consent but I think books are Certainly in primary schools the magical way to really make children realize how diverse the world is. I love that So start with books. That's a good in and where would you even begin to go and find where these books exist? It's funny this, you know, you're gonna do like a little drop for my website So my website is www.morethanflagsandrainbows.com

The idea behind the name is I have been into some schools and I laugh and I say it's like a unicorn Exploded in the school because there's rainbow flags everywhere, but that doesn't mean that it's an inclusive school Inclusion is so much deeper, but we'll get into that in a bit. But anyway on my website I've got a diverse book list which has Books for all types of diversity that you can filter So if you've got a particular topic you're looking for a particular age group And I just wanted to make it easy to find because it is actually really hard to find Lists of books certainly international books and the ones that I put on there I've really tried to make sure that they're you know, they are available internationally But otherwise it's going to charities in that area. Most charities have book lists And what I would say is I often get the question So if we've got a diverse book, you know box or whatever should it be a section of its own in the library? Should we intermingle them and I would say both I go right They should be in amongst the other books because all children should access them But say for example, you've got a school where most of the children white and there are a few children of color They might want to access a book with other children of color And so actually it's good to also have a section where they can go But yeah, check out my diverse book list and I'm adding to it every week So if there's ever any books you can't find just drop me a message and i'll find one for you I love that and brilliant resource. Thank you for putting that together. I also really like what you said about library spaces

You don't need to necessarily just have a section and separate them That would almost be like the textbook analogy that you talked about like having the Textbooks that talk you through these things which are you know a fine, but it's not just normalizing in the stories So I almost expected you to say yeah scatter them within but of course there is a place for allowing Children who have got a family who they think is different to other people around them Or they want to kind of see things that resonate with them themselves that they know where to go for that as well That's a powerful safe space for them. Yeah, and I go into schools and do workshops with pupils and one of the things I do quite a lot is I go in and sort of do an Evaluation of how inclusive their school is and spend the day with pupils and teachers and basically develop an action plan with the school and I was in a school a little while ago in south wales and I was chatting to them and I had a selection of books on my table and one of them picked up the book and they Read the back and they went all the place things here sound Welsh and I was like, yes, they do Oh my gosh, they were so excited They had never read a book which was written in their local area like a novel and their reaction Because these were white children who we don't always think about representation with them We tend to think about minority groups certainly in western countries. We don't think about white children What's their representation and actually they're seeing a book that was from their local area It was wonderful their faces just lit up and I ended up I bought a couple of copies for the class because they were they were all going to fight over this one book So I think it's thinking about All children when we're thinking about representation and then seeing themselves not just the minority groups Every child should see themselves reflected in the books that they read That really resonates with me in a way as well Like I can remember as a child coming from the north of england Very working class area and remember the literature and the artwork that we studied at school I just you know, I was just it just felt like it was stuff that I was studying And I remember we once then visited the Lowry to view some of Lowry's art which depicts very strongly things in this industrial towns and working class and all of a sudden there was the Connection that I had to that because I was like, oh this is linked to me now So you realize how important identity is with connecting to what you're learning and connecting with school, right? And how disconnecting it can be if everything you're getting Taught or everything you're seeing just doesn't quite fit the reality of your life or your experience One of the books that really transformed the way I think about this stuff is By Valerie Hannon and immediate peterson and is the thrive the purpose of schools in a changing world and she writes about How we relate to things to ourselves So she talks about four levels about you think about things Intrapersonals how they relate to yourselves interpersonal between us and societal and global And it's really interesting when I was talking about this work Thinking about if you're a uk pupil and I asked you to name a civil rights activist The first one you would say is martin luther king jr And then I would say to write name a british one and it wouldn't have a clue And then I say to people right tell me about a major event in uk lgbt rights And they'd be silent. So tell me tell me an international one and they go oh the stonewall riots

And we have this thing where sometimes we're so concerned by the global Representation and role models and events that we forget about actually bringing it back to the local actually What does it look like in the the area for our children and particularly when we're talking about primary children? You know I was only in a school the other day where I went and there were three-year-olds coloring in a world map And they were coloring and with different children in the world came from and I went They didn't even know what town they're in like Why are we coloring in a world map of three-year-olds? And sometimes we get so obsessed with the global that we jump to it way too quickly And actually it's I you know, it's really important that in civil rights work We learn about martin luther king jr But also we should be learning about like in britain We should learn about paul stevenson who's one of the foremost civil rights activists in the uk and whatever country you're in I would always say think about those levels. Yes, it's great to learn about the global But whatever we're doing are you bringing it back to the child and what really matters to them and in their local area?

That's really powerful And also I think will resonate so well with international school leaders because they sit within a context And their students sit within that context as well I know there's like things in the international world being written on this they call it Globalization if you like, how does a local interact with the global? But it's kind of what we're talking about here Like we live within the local in most of our lives even though we think we don't with the internet But that's actually our reality that we're seeing day to day around us with our eyes And so of course that makes a world of sense to me now that if we're then demonstrating especially these Big topics on the world that have got global attention such as lgbt or such as these other important issues That are affecting everyone then sometimes that in itself can distance you from the message Absolutely, you know and the first time I really recognized was nothing to do with any inclusion Actually, I was learning about the rainforest And I was reading Valerie Hannon's book and I realized that we were learning about the rainforest and deforestation and hadn't once mentioned wales It gives the children the impression that this stuff isn't happening here and the same with when we're talking about racism or homophobia Whatever it is If you're only ever talking about other countries It gives the impression that it's not happening here And we need to be very very careful and same with when we're learning about role models And I talk a lot about this if we're learning about role models Yes, it's great to learn about international ones But actually where are your local ones because otherwise those children may think oh, well I can only be a role model to people if i'm american or if i'm from london We've got to be very very careful That we don't give that impression So yes, we should be learning about those international ones But also learning about local ones and it's the same with when we particularly learn about sexuality One of the most common role models that we learn about in the uk is alan turing Who was one of the people responsible for inventing the first computers? You know crack the enigma code in world war two huge role model and he was gay And he's often used as a role model particularly in primary schools Yeah, but the problem is is he was chemically castrated and died a very awful death Possibly by suicide and is that really a positive role model if you've got a boy in the class Who's questioning if they're gay? Is that what you want to say is your role model for what it's like to be gay?

I'm sorry you're gay you're going to get chemically castrated and you're going to kill yourself And where are the positive ones? Where are the ones where actually they've got a happy ending? So role models to me are really the next step. So whereas fanation phase were really three to seven We're talking about books when we're moving then to seven to eleven and older This is where we need to start thinking about is our role models and our events and how we're teaching Making sure there's inspiring ones, but just there are people who just get on with their lives Yeah, you don't have to be a hero to be gay, you know, you can just be a person They can be almost people within your community or something. Yeah

Could it be an issue if the only role models you're seeing are these people achieving these big Vansiful things on a global level that could potentially feel a bit more alienating because they're protected by their fame in a way And you might think well, I haven't got that. I'm just me I want to take a moment to tell you about the international curriculum conference that is coming up from the international curriculum association This will be held from the 11th to the 13th of november in 2024 in koala lumpa in malaysia It is so exciting The theme of this is global perspectives local impact and I was at their conference last year I can't recommend it highly enough This is a focal point for the global community of schools part of the international curriculum association There is going to be amazing keynote speakers and a wide range of school-led workshops delivered by classroom teachers Sharing their practice and experience Seriously with the incredible insights and showcasing of learning I really do recommend the international curriculum conference because it offers a unique level of enrichment connection and learning for all If you're interested check out the link in the show notes to register, please go there. It's going to be great One of the most common ones I see in school all the time is sam smith towards the role model and you know Whatever you think of their music is irrelevant, but that is so unattainable for these young people Because the vast majority of people aren't going to be pop stars No one wants to be a pop star. No one wants to hear me sing i'm one of the only Welsh people who can't sing so, you know, but it's not thinking about Actually what matters them and when I go into workshops and a lot of workshops with young people And the difference having what they would class as a inverted commas normal person talking to them about their lives is actually really powerful Same with disabilities when we're talking about disability. So often I see it's learning about paralimpians

Well, that doesn't represent the vast majority of people who are disabled one of the most powerful lessons I did my sister is almost completely deaf and was hearing aids And we did a video chat where my class interviewed her She wasn't a celebrity. She wasn't a paralimpian, but they learned so much more from chatting to her about actually What is everyday life like for people with a disability? So yeah, really think about those role models actually what matters to your children and who are the inspiring people? Preferably from your local area because that's the biggest thing that's most powerful to me Is if they know that their people who go to the same shops as them They walk down the same streets That's really powerful What's really striking me about what you're saying right now is that a lot of the things you're talking about are just principles of just being Inclusive as a general like these are kind of general inclusive principles I guess maybe that links to how you said you don't feel you're an activist as such But you're thinking this in a broader level and actually I imagine the training you do with schools or what you do with schools Helps them beyond dealing with the homophobia, for example that they might be experiencing but in terms of just wider general inclusion Acceptance that kind of work. Yeah, definitely, you know when I do training I talk about there's a two-prong approach to reducing stigma discrimination

One of them is the cricklin and the things we've talked about so far like the representation because what you're doing is you're usualizing it You're educating people on something that they may have never come across in their life My son went to a new school recently and for the first time ever was bullied for being adopted She wasn't in his previous school because they talked about it. He had three adopted friends in his class So it was just something was talked about his new school He's the only adopted child that we know of in the school. Wow And it's that often bullying and stigma discrimination comes from a place of ignorance And so our curriculum has a responsibility to teach our children about what is not in their direct sphere And then the other side of it then is when this stigma and discrimination bullying happens actually What do we do about it? And that's the other side really is I have been to schools where they've told me oh, there's no bullying in this school And I say well absolute rubbish you either totally oblivious to it or you don't know it's going on I'm, sorry Every school has bullying and is not something to be ashamed of It's how you deal with it. That's what matters

First of all, there should be consequences. So if a child uses a homophobic slur straight away There should be a consequence But also what's really important is then that person needs to be educated because no child is born racist or homophobic or transphobic they learn it and so as well as a consequence It's really important that we provide them on an education. Why is it wrong to say those things? What do these words actually mean and only through that two-prong approach? Can we really tackle these things?

But yeah, so, you know, so curriculum has one side But also when these things do happen We need to have a clear strategy in our schools of what we do when we hear these phrases and and this bullying happens Yeah We're navigating now into especially as students are getting older, right? So, you know, these things can happen a lot more and I assume that a lot of this is that These words creep in because students are getting Educated like an inverted commas in some ways from outside the school walls, right? Do you feel like it's a battle sometimes that they're trying to fight narratives that are happening outside the school wall? so I was a teacher for 17 years I was a teaching deaf he had and I never had any homophobia throughout my entire life Nothing at all And I think I was a bit ignorant to it I think I'd almost assumed that it'd gone away and then all of a sudden about two and a half years ago I had a puke bill who was eight who refused to come to school because I had a son with another man And the phrase that this eight-year-old used was it's inappropriate for man to have a child another man Now that's not the language of an eight-year-old And it was clearly from the parents and he didn't come to school for three months because of who I was Wow, and it was devastating for me because I the guilt that I felt For this child missing three months of their education and it was just not long after covet as well So they'd already missed absolutely loads It wasn't a pupil who would engage with online learning through lockdown So they were already facing these challenges But the battle wasn't with the child the battle was with the parents and we had meeting after meeting and they were insisting That they didn't want the child to be in my class that it wasn't healthy for them to be in there To be fair to my head. She was very adamant

She's going absolutely not parents do not choose which class their children are in and also this is discrimination Yes, we're not having it and to be fair to my head She absolutely stood by everything The funny thing was so we had the local authority Then got involved and basically threatened to find the parents unless he returned to school child came to school within a week We were absolutely great and we had a really strong relationship at the end of the year He then ended the year writing me a card saying I was his favorite teacher ever You know, so this is the thing. It was nothing to do with the child It was all coming from the parents And actually the parents came around as well because I had a lovely present off them at the end of the year Because they had their own prejudices which were totally based in ignorance But when they actually learned oh god the gays aren't what I thought they were you know When they actually saw that I was just a genuine real person who cared for the kids and wanted the best for them They learned as well And I think that's what we have to recognize sometimes is our parents are going through their own journey as well The strong thing that my head did was stand by our conviction that we are an inclusive school We don't stand for discrimination and that's it, you know And one of my lines with my head used to say was this isn't a prison If you want to take your child elsewhere, you can these are the values of our school And if you agree to come into our school, you agree to the values and that's it, you know And for the transformation just from Them seeing what a gay man was actually like it wasn't like what they read online It wasn't like all of the misinformation and it was really transformative And of course that you mention online there because I guess the internet is just One of the main places where people get information from now and that can be such a challenge I'd love to think Practically as we come to the end of the conversation here and on you mentioned about that leader that you had and i'm so sorry That you went through that experience But sounds like you had a leader who had some strategies in order to get through that experience So I wonder if you've got any strategies where leaders would start in kind of developing that kind of culture so that when These conversations come along they feel like is there like a playbook to follow or is there like something that can help you navigate? I imagine myself included this would just feel if it's new you haven't had this conversation before you might just feel Overwhelmed and not know what to do when confronted in the way that you were Yes, something I do in the training I do at schools is we develop a script together So we developed a script So if your door stepped because very often this conversation will happen You know you're saying goodbye to children the end of the day on the classroom gate or the classroom door and you'll be caught off guard So I train the staff in a script and essentially the script goes Thank you for telling me that you don't want your child to read a book with two dads So you repeat back to them what they've said The values of our school are that we're inclusive of all Identities and we want to make every child feel safe secure and represented if you'd like more information on that Please book an appointment at the desk And that's how I do the teachers is they have this script and then the person will go back to them and say something like Yeah, yeah, but i'm not happy with the books they've been used I know you're not happy with the books having two dads in our school values are and you just repeat the Thing and you're finished with if you want more then you book an appointment at the desk So from a teacher perspective, I always say to teachers. It's not your job to get into the conversation Certainly not on the the yard or the gate It's not and having that script and actually I get the teachers to rehearse that script Because it's one of those things that if I just put it up on a screen and say this is what you should say When it actually happens you forget about it So I put up some example statements and actually get staff to practice To each other and they actually find it really funny when they do it because they've all got a parent in their head when they do it When they're acting as the parent they've all got one, but actually doing that but when it comes to Head teachers and principals when you are talking about this, it's pretty much the same script But with a bit more detail don't get into conversation about equality or equal rights Or scripture can very often happen people get into conversations about religion Just don't get into the conversation. You stand by your school values. You stand by the law of your country

This is what it is This is our school values your child is part of this school. You've agreed to our values and that's it You know don't get into debate if you start getting into a debate with these people they're going to win Because that's exactly what they want. It's called stonewalling politicians do it all the time very effectively You just stonewall them by repeating the same statements back that you're an inclusive school And this is the policy of our school and that's it. That's such incredibly helpful advice in I think sometimes schools can say well, we've got a vision we've got values that we have out there But do schools actually get the chance to practice what those difficult conversations look like?

Especially those ones that just come at you and I imagine you know It doesn't take long to just actually rehearse this a couple of times To have an agreement as a staff and to feel just a bit more empowered and confident And then I guess you're passing it back to the desk, right? And then that means that you can prepare better for another conversation But even in that conversation you would still have the script and you would still be referencing your values You don't have to Jump into their life into the way they're justifying their values because it's your school Absolutely. I know I had one only the day I was working in the school Where someone came to me and said that my religion does not allow us talk about same-sex families Now what they wanted me to do was to get into a discussion about scripture. That's what they wanted Now we all know that there is enough scripture that you can find any statement to justify pretty much any opinion I'm not getting into a conversation about scripture just because this is a faith school I'm not getting into a conversation about scripture. These are the values of our school. That's it. Yes, you're here

These are values of our school, you know, the only addition i'd say for faith schools, which can be really useful Is if so, for example the school I was in the priest who was working with the school supported it And that was a really valuable addition we put into the script was actually father So and so their name is also supportive of this But I wouldn't get into a conversation about scripture or about belief because at the end of the day They're entitled to their beliefs, but that doesn't mean you're going to change your entire school Based on one person. Yes, that's really really helpful This conversation has been full of so much practical advice that you deliver in such a safe way Ian and I really really value the way you deliver it these accessible Points for schools to get started. None of what you've described seems like a big scary step Which is what I think is often imagined. So really grateful for the work you're doing. Thank you so much

Yeah, no, thank you And I think that's almost a big part of my training that I do with schools is demystifying a lot of it People think is i'm going to come in and turn your curriculum over and it's not it's about small incremental steps to the end of the day You might be going on a journey yourself as well And we've got to take it step by step because if we run before we walk we're just going to fall This conversation truly taught me a lot today. I liked how ian talked about inclusion through representation in your school thinking about Literature as a route in to that representation actually not Choosing literature that are necessarily explicitly focusing on lgbtq plus But actually just texts that have diverse family structure Or normalize diversity International school leaders can really think about how they can bring their libraries and their curriculas up to date with the world's varied realities Also, I love the idea of focusing not just on the globally famous figures But also local issues and local role models that make it really relevant to the students in front of you And his practical strategies I find really useful I think it's a really good idea to adopt scripts and get some training in how to handle those kind of difficult conversations Around inclusivity, especially in our international context You need to have a consistent message across your school that aligns with your values and your legal obligations And you need to provide to your staff Ongoing support and rehearsal opportunities so that they can prepare For addressing stigmatizing behaviors and really bringing around that inclusive environment I reckon some of these takeaways can really help school leaders to create a more inclusive and more relevant and I think a more cohesive environment in their schools Global Ed Leaders is hosted by me Shane Leaning Thanks to the show editor Pete McGill and for original music by Guillermo Silva Thank you so much for tuning in today. And if we don't speak before I'll see you here next week Remember to find out more about the international curriculum association and that fantastic international curriculum conference in november Check out the links in the show notes