Beyond 'Research Says' | A Conversation with Andrew Watson

You hear it all the time research says we should be doing this we should be doing that But what if the person's saying it actually hasn't read the research or maybe the research was done somewhere completely different from your school Well today Andrew Watson is here to help you hear those two words very differently Hey, I'm Shane Leaning. Welcome to education leaders the chat topping international podcast for the leaders in schools around the world I'm an author and organizational coach and in this show I bring you practical ideas and honest conversations to help you leave with confidence and clarity This episode is supported by CC and the International curriculum association. Stay tuned to learn more My guest today is Andrew Watson educator author and founder of translate the brain now He started teaching English back in 1988 he went on to an a master's in education in mind brain and education from Harvard and he has spent the last 15 years helping teachers and leaders work out what the science of learning research actually means for them and More importantly what it doesn't he's written three books and he writes a learning in the brain blog And I'll be honest with you. I walked away from this conversation Still buzzing Andrew isn't cynical about research He loves it But he won't let you be lazy with it either and that combination is Rarer than you might think in this space if you've ever sat in a staff meeting where someone dropped the research shows and nobody questioned it Well, this conversation might just change how you respond in that room. Let's get straight into it

researchers isolate variables and teachers and leaders combine variables and those are both important jobs But they're both very different jobs so if What I'm looking for as a school leader or as a teacher is an objective long-term perspective on a particular question Research is really good at focusing on one thing and seeing what happens in an isolated way over a long period of time But if I'm looking for an on the ground realistic what actually happens in the classroom perspective My colleagues are gonna have that my experience is gonna have that professional guidance is gonna have that so both of those perspectives are Immensely important and the goal is not to pick one over the other not to prioritize one over the other But to find the way that those two perspectives can work most effectively together. I Love that you say it so well. I'm wonder then based on that. What about this line that we hear a lot I was at a conference literally this week and I Kind of lost count of the time where people said research says we should be doing this You know research says and I know you've got a lot of feelings on the kind of research says or or at least where research should Direct our practice, you know, how should people be responding to that research says line when they hear it in a series of ways So initially, I think research says is a helpful entry to a question. So I as a teacher

I'm always grateful when someone comes to me and says oh research says this so now I have a new perspective on work that I've done and I'm glad to hear that and I'm Happy to have that way to think about it at the same time as you're suggesting so politely Shane it happens that people say research says and Perhaps the research behind that claim wasn't very well done or perhaps it was done in one context And I work in a very different context or perhaps the person who made the claim Misunderstood what the researchers said or it does happen that people say research says just as sort of a verbal habit They say research says meanings all of my colleagues have told me or something like that So whenever I hear research says if I'm interested in the topic, my first response is to say, oh, thank you very much That's very helpful to know. What is the most persuasive research that you know of that supports that claim? And depending on the answer I get to that question I can then know what it is that I want to do next to keep the conversation going It's so interesting to me this because yeah as I'm listening to you It's almost not just research says like people say it in different ways Don't they sometimes it's like we know that you know, our studies have shown or something like this like they're almost Like authority markers that I feel like we have to say to establish credibility maybe when we're talking or when we're sharing something with someone but equally I guess it can Be dangerous because for the receiver potentially the way you receive that is problematic I mean, what are the problems with the way that that can be received in your mind? Words like research says or research based the implication is the thinking has been done for us And it's our job to take the finished thinking and apply it and I want to step back and question that it means that some Thinking has been done for us But in any system as complicated as a school There are a lot of different perspectives. There are a lot of different variables. There are a lot of different factors schools are complex systems

So thinking might have been done about one part of it But we first of all have to check and see how good is this research behind this claim? And second was the research done in a context that's close enough to my context So I will want to take advice. So for instance if I work in a Montessori school and The research was done in the US Naval Academy Those are very different worlds and it's good that research was done in the US Naval Academy The US Naval Academy is set up in a particular way that makes it really easy to do research there because everyone takes the same Classes in the same order and that controls some variables, which is very helpful to researchers But that context is very different from an enormous number of other contexts So we shouldn't automatically take conclusions from that world and apply them in our world So I think a leader is going to be listening going Okay But I don't have time to kind of like read all the research and know this for myself So if someone who I feel has some authority is telling me That research says and there's a lot of this kind of research in the world now in education And that's a good thing, right? Like we're understanding a lot more about the brain than we used to and a lot of this is coming into the education space And I think in your book the Goldilocks might you even say that It's a shame when your early career that we weren't aware of these things and like how crazy is that that we weren't even aware?

But at the same time it's overwhelming and we need it Filtered towards as leaders in a way like unless you're a leader who kind of buries your head in the research So in a way we're dependent on people who are telling us About the research or sharing it with us like we're very susceptible to kind of following what they say Don't you think and if that's the case like how do we start to filter things that are coming our way? Such an important question I don't think it's the school leader's job to be the person in charge of filtering Some leaders will want to But I think most have plenty to do and maybe that particular Quest isn't their first focus I think every school leader wants to have somebody on the faculty somebody in the community who really is interested in this kind of question And really wants to pursue this kind of quest and ask the questions and do the digging and have that Particular specialty is one of their many school duties in the way all of us in schools have many school duties So I think having a point person for that Is always helpful, but there are some key indicators. So for instance Simply the phrase all the research shows Is an important tell people who work with Psychology research cognitive psychology research for instance Know that schools are so complicated and teaching is so complicated and learning is so complicated and people are so complicated It is literally Never true that all the research shows anything about a meaningfully complicated question in schools. There will always be wide range So if a school leader hears the phrase all the research shows this They've just learned the person who said that Isn't as deeply in research world As they seem to be suggesting they are so that's the sort of simple Insight to have that will help a leader Have a quick decision-making process about whether or not this is the sort of person whose judgment I should rely on I love that you frame it through kind of asking a set of questions already You've been giving some powerful questions here like asking somebody, you know, who says research saying, thank you What's the most persuasive piece of research? I love that question. That's really powerful

These kind of filtering questions that might help you to get to the heart of it But I like the way that you do this too is because I guess it could come across aggressive But the way you framed it was very kind and thankful and acknowledging the importance of what they were saying And then kind of like asking and being curious as to have no more Yeah, it's one of the ways shane. I think you and I are alike that we both lead with questions That both your most recent book and my most recent book are very question focused books And an awareness most people in education. There are a lot of important disagreements in the world of education But very few people come into those disagreements with wicked motives There are some people who are just here to make money and that happens there is grifting But I don't think that's where most people are. I think most people genuinely believe strongly different things So I find it helpful to start with questions and to start with grateful questions because I am genuinely grateful I learn more from people who disagree with me than people who agree with me most of the time yeah, so I am in fact grateful when I get surprising new information and It's sometimes hard to keep that in mind when people are challenging what I think But the more I can keep it in mind the likelier it is that i'll learn more and ultimately make a better decision I really appreciate that and I wonder if I can ask you for a bit of advice Then andrew I was literally just at a conference as I mentioned and at the conference There was one of the presentations like workshops where Learning styles were mentioned as part of the presentations and i'm like in this workshop And I hear it and I see it and they say well This will be better for your visual learners or there was some kind of comment like that, you know And you know, I cringe inside because i'm like this has been debunked, right? How would you recommend people?

Approach those kind of conversations because there are still a lot of things that kind of float around in education like that That can put you in a bit of an awkward situation if you know what I mean You've put your finger on such a difficult question The short answer to your question is I don't know the most frequent strategy that I see people embrace is fairly Confrontational and to say Everybody knows the learning pyramid is wrong. Why don't you know that? Everybody knows that learning styles don't exist. Why don't you know that?

Everybody knows that the myers-briggs test Isn't measuring something that's real. Why don't you know that? and There's a habit of making long lists of so-called neuromyths. They're actually really more psychology myths They're psychomyths not neuromyths But people make lists of these and debunk them and I Doubt that confronting someone is going to get them to a place where they want to change their mind so One of the reasons I try to enter those conversations with a curious question Is to invite A conversation that we're both going to learn from because I think it's likely to go somewhere So I myself in that context Depending on the setup. I would hesitate to challenge a speaker in a workshop

I would feel like I was grabbing the microphone or something like that Yes If the speaker asked my opinion or if there was an invitation for dialogue or something like that Or maybe in a conversation at the end I might say something like I'm sure you know that these days learning styles is quite a controversial theory And my impression from what you said is that you are still persuaded by the evidence Can you talk me through your thought process? And to start from the assumption That we're having an informed conversation And be curious about their perspective Would be my instinct if there were to be a conversation. I think I would say something like that Yeah, this is very typical Andrew Watson thing to say I would say given what I know of you so far Because I just love your approach to curiosity and I know I could learn a lot about that framing That's the exact way. I think it would be good to deal with that. Thank you for that

This episode is supported by the International Curriculum Association The ICA have been around for 30 years now championing quality unlocking potential and improving learning in international schools And what I really love is that right at their core is a model for improving learning This is a model focused on the learning experience and they have got tons of great curriculum materials PD resources and even an accreditation pathway for schools, just like yours if you're interested head to internationalcurriculum.com Tell me if this sounds familiar your board asks for a school-wide report on academic achievement and you've got 24 hours to deliver it So you start digging but elementary data. Well, that is on one system middle school is on another high school data somewhere else And then there's exam boards on top of that Well by the time you track down the 10 to 15 places your data lives there is no time left for actual analysis But the thing is that status quo is not Normal, it is just what we've gotten used to and the good news is cc changes that cc brings every part of your school Into one simple platform so you can spend less time compiling reports and more time leading If that sounds familiar, you can check out cc.org or Sisi.org

So I wonder if I could bring the conversation a little bit to the side to talk about Cooking and you probably know where i'm going with this and I didn't plan it, but I saw you reposted something you wrote about recently on the biology of cooking And I really really enjoyed it But in a sense for listeners, you know Andrew gave us a cooking lesson based on the science and the biology behind good cooking And essentially I quote to prepare food like an expert you have to push food from acid To base and in this you put it did make me laugh The cooking advice below you said imagine chicken breast drenched in vinegar and soaked in live bon appetit Yeah, you you broke down the science of what should work and yet it doesn't like I really like this analogy Talk me through it and how this relates to education because I think this kind of sums up a lot of what we're talking about here Oh, i'm so glad you enjoyed that. It was very fun to write so one of the very common popular understandings of the role of neuroscience in education is Inside the brain. This is what happens and therefore we should recreate that process outside of the brain yeah, and There are several problems with that chain of thought One is our knowledge of what actually happens in the brain is minute Even the things we know best We barely know it all kurt fisher who was one of the founders of the field of bringing all these fields together When I was in his graduate program He used to say we are in kindergarten when it comes to understanding the brain We might be in second grade now probably first grade So our actual understanding of what happens in the brain is tiny But the second point is simply recreating an internal process externally doesn't mean you're going to get a good result So the process of digestion Is run by peristalsis your body pushes food starting from your mouth and down the esophagus through the stomach and through the Intestines, so that's pushing and the mouth and the stomach are highly acidic and the intestines are highly basic. So Digestion is pushing from acid to base So if I take that as cooking advice and I say, okay What i'll do is initially need my chicken breast in vinegar and then i'll need it in lye That will certainly be terrible and it might be fatal recreating the internal process externally is not good advice And the same is true if someone comes and says well neuroscience shows That the brain does this and then this and then this and then this and therefore teachers should follow that same order of operations That's a false analogy So, how do you based on that then because you've got all this great science that's happening over here and telling us how things work But you work with schools all the time you're going to be working with a few schools We were just talking before you're going to be working with a few schools next month. So

What do you do when you go into schools given? This is the case because I assume you don't go and tell them this is what the research says This is what you should do or is there a better way around engaging with the research base here? Sure, the mantra that I chant is don't just do this thing Instead think this way. I'm not here with the checklist. I'm not here with a series of rules

I'm definitely not here with a list of best practices. I don't think they exist I'm here to give you ways to think about what you do not tell you what to do And my particular focus is on cognitive function. How does memory work for instance? How does attention work?

And when teachers start understanding from a psychological perspective how memory works They will apply that knowledge, but they will apply it very differently in different contexts So a second grade teacher will do something different from a sixth grade hockey coach or if you work in a Waldorf school and if you work with I'm blanking on the name that very famous schools in texas that everything is ai these days The way that you use that guidance will be very different because your context is different I can't tell you what to do in your context. I can tell you how to think in your context So for me the shifts are I don't talk much about neuroscience. I talk about psychology And I don't tell you what to do I try to give you ways to think about what you do and then you individual teachers Individual schools individual communities can make decisions about how those cognitive principles apply in your specific context Is this like almost if I can kind of bring it to life I know many leaders at the minute some areas of like the science of learning that will be maybe high in what they've heard about would be things like let's say retrieval practice, you know the idea of retrieve and They may have been advised by someone and some schools like do five minutes at the beginning of every lesson You know a quiz is that kind of the thing that you think you you don't do you're not looking at those kind of Application do it this way But you would explore How the brain stalls and retrieves information and then what should we do about that? Am I reading that right?

Yeah, that's a great example So anytime research-based advice turns into a rule turns into a checklist turns into a number That's something we can start to worry about So I don't know have you heard of the 10-minute rule that might be in your head a long time ago in the field There was an attention rule the 10-minute rule that people can pay attention only for 10 minutes And therefore classes should be broken into 10-minute segments And it turns out the research basis behind that is comically inadequate But you don't even need to look at the research basis behind it the fact that it's called the 10-minute rule Means you can walk past it because it has a number in it and it's called a rule and the idea that We've got one number of minutes That's true for all people in all disciplines at all ages in all cultures is just hard to take seriously But people took it very seriously very thoughtful people embraced it So when I talk about retrieval practice, I don't say here's what we know about retrieval practice And therefore you should begin all classes with five minutes of retrieval practice. I say here's what we know about retrieval practice Let's now think about what are you doing? That's the opposite of retrieval practice, which we would call simple review So where are the places in your classes where you're doing simple review? And how can we convert those into retrieval practice exercises?

And then talk through different ways. Well, I review by having students do this great What's the retrieval practice version of that? Would be my approach to a question like yours Ah, I love that that's great. And by the way on that 10-minute thing, literally Maybe it's just a conference that I was at literally there was someone who brought up not the 10-minute rule But they were saying you were quite the minute by their age So like the attention is based on their age, but the minutes like I guess this is a similar thing, right?

It's the 10-minute rule 2.0 Okay And is that any better? It is better to the degree that it acknowledges that age is going to matter Yes, which obviously is but culture is going to matter The interest in the topic is going to matter Like if a student is interested in the topic, they will pay attention to it longer. Yeah, some Topics are intrinsically more interesting to people than others are we can say quietly between ourselves Some teachers are probably better at helping students stay interested in subjects than other teachers are but I understand There's a rule in Montessori education which says never interrupt a working child And I think that's rather a lovely rule and I worry that if you say well eight-year-olds can pay attention only for eight minutes And therefore even though this eight-year-old student is working happily I will now interrupt the student and we'll do something else That seems to me like very bad advice If the student is happily reading if the student is solving the math problems if the student is exploring the history book That's excellent, but let's keep doing that Yeah, totally. This makes sense and it's why context matters and it's also why teachers get frustrated

It's funny like another thing I was reading your book Like I presented very recently and I mentioned where I think teachers have the rolliest eyes of any profession I think that don't you think but I totally understand why because amount of change and stuff and things that they have to deal with It's just it's no wonder like so I think we've developed that and I actually I remember reading in your book You had a note on eye rolling as well, which did make me laugh out loud I think we're on the same page now I won't be able to find that but I think teachers do get tired And a lot of the time they get tired is because they feel like they're being told by a leader or told by an external expert I've been told by someone that That person knows more in this setting about their context and their class than they do which is just this bizarre Idea and sadly, I think it results in teachers pulling away from the research base or pulling away from the evidence Because there is that kind of pushing into the teacher's classroom So I like the way you frame it in terms of let's be curious about what you already do Let's explore how this works in psychology or the brain And what does that mean? How does it show where might we may be able to make tweaks that would align to that and how would that work for you? This seems like a much more healthy place to be Well, thank you I certainly agree about the eye rolling and the resentment of the implication That the pd consultant knows more about my classroom than I do. That's very hard to hear And for me the next level of that is actually my students progress is my responsibility not the consultants You know the consultant's going to be here for x number of hours x number of days and then that person is gone And i'm the person with these students for the rest of the year and for all of my students for all of my teaching career And I so resist the idea of absolute teaching advice Because the person giving the absolute teaching advice isn't here To work with them and face the consequences if it doesn't work. That's me

So when i'm the person with the microphone giving the advice I really try to lead with the fact that I can tell you I'm quite persuaded About something like retrieval practice. I'm quite persuaded about something like the importance of working memory limitations I'm quite persuaded About rethinking how attention actually works attention isn't one thing. It's three things So i'm quite persuaded when teachers understand these cognitive functions from this cognitive science perspective That will inform their teaching But I can't tell a fourth grade teacher what to do I've never talked fourth grade and it would be presumptuous of me to think I can't and I certainly can't tell school leaders How to lead a school i've never led a school And interestingly you've used that word persuaded a few times in this conversation and I think that's quite a nice framing actually I've not been persuaded as a nice response to that and also What would persuade you what's persuaded you about the evidence that you're sharing here? I think is a really curious stance to take I wonder Andrew if we could kind of finish up Talking about something that I think a lot of leaders will Experience so if I was to take a step back a lot of leaders in schools around the world listening to this will be Thinking well a lot of the time as the leader, maybe especially if they're kind of principal or a head teacher or that kind of level They're not necessarily teaching in the classroom. They're not also necessarily reading some of the latest research

Sometimes it can come from some of the Younger faculty in your school sometimes or this can be a natural thing to happen So a lot of the time the ideas that surface from the research can come from teachers in a school A teacher's read a new book or been to a conference or been somewhere someone in their school has kind of heard something and they get Excited about it They are compelled by the evidence that they've got and they want to kind of move into it Now as the leader in the school you are sometimes naturally that filter or that approval mechanism so I wonder how would you Advise a leader who has been presented to by a teacher or someone in their school With new evidence like how could they help them? Filter that and be supportive but while being appropriately skeptical, I guess You are in some ways circling back to the first question you asked which is what's the best way to use research in schools? I think if I were school leader and a new teacher came to me with research, especially research that surprised me Partly my response is going to be guided by my own leadership philosophy is going to be guided by the school's mission and philosophy There are some schools that have a very we do it this way And if you've got research that contradicts that that's fine, but we're not going to do that We do it this way, but perhaps you're in a school. That's more open to change I think what I would do is say something like that sounds really exciting and wonderful Can you go find the three most persuasive studies that support that claim?

And the three most persuasive studies that contradict that claim and think about That group of studies that you found that See not what one research study says but start looking for what pools of research say And once you've looked at that come back and talk to me about what the strengths and weaknesses are Talk to me about how your own convictions are playing into your decision And let's think about making a plan where we can Get the strengths out of this idea without bringing in some of the weaknesses that you might have discovered We haven't talked much at all about ai and I would say one of the big changes since the book was published is AI isn't yet good at answering questions like does the research show this or that AI is really helpful at exploring The research that you find So if you go to your chatbot of choice and say I found this study What are the two other most persuasive ones and what are other studies that contradict it? It's actually really good at finding those and then looking for a synthesis So you still need to drive the process but AI can be really helpful in making that process happen I really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did a few things I want to leave with you the next time someone says research says well try andrew's question What's the most persuasive research you know that supports that claim? You'll learn a lot from that answer and I reckon so will they if that phrase all the research shows ever comes up Well treat it as a signal not a source that phrase is almost always Assign someone isn't as deep in the evidence as maybe they sound And if a teacher comes to you maybe really buzzing with the new idea Well, don't just say yes Don't just say no ask them to find three studies that support it and maybe three that push back And that's how you build a genuinely research in farm culture rather than a research decorated one You can find the link to andrew's work. They're all in the show notes highly recommend the blog if you want to keep this thinking going Education Leaders is hosted by me Shane Leaning Thanks to the show editor Pete McGill Production assistant Skyler Rose Sturman and the original music by GMA Silver and thank you so much for tuning in today If we don't speak before as ever I'll see you here next week If you want to learn more about CC or the international curriculum association check out the links in the show notes