Explicit Instruction Done Well | Gene Tavernetti

Shane: Well good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are in the world. Welcome to Coaching Done Well. My name is Shane Leaning and I am here in Shanghai China joined by my brilliant co-host as ever Jim Thompson. Jim where in the world are you?

Jim Thompson: Well, since I'm at an advanced age, I might have to think about that for a minute or two, my friend. Hope you give me that Mary Bud Rose wait time on that. But we're we're out here in upstate New York. We have two seasons, fourth of July and winter. And we're just on that seasons change. Schools just started last week and this week in upstate New York. For us in western New York, Jean's out there in California where every day's like Lake Wobagon with weather. But in in upstate New York, probably September is the most beautiful weather month of our entire year. So we get we start edging into that fall. They've had the p the Halloween candy on the store shelves for the last month. But we're here, we're looking and we're just thrilled to have Gene with us from way out in California. I know he had to get up real early, but we're we're thrilled to have him here today.

Shane: It's an incredible privilege Jean to have you with us today. I usually feel a bit guilty because Jim you usually have the early mornings on this show I have the late nights but Jean's up at 5 a.m. over in that part of the world. What a privilege. Welcome Jean to Coaching Done Well.

Gene Tavernetti: gosh, it's it's an honor to be here and it's worth getting up at three o'clock to be with you fellas.

Shane: I appreciate that and not only do I appreciate you being with us Jean but also appreciate everyone who's joining with us online. I'm looking to my left now because I've got a little screen open with LinkedIn where we go live every time. I can see there's a few people joining us already. Hello I see you all there. Please put a comment below the videos. Let us know who you are, where you're tuning in from. Say hi. This is your show as much as ours. want you to get engaged in the conversation. It's a real privilege to have you all with us. So keep posting your comments there as we go through the show. I wonder, Gene, for those who don't know you, maybe you can give us a bit of an overview about what you do and what you've been up to recently.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, a little bit of background. I've been involved in education since 1977, either as a teacher, coach, counselor, administrator, and then for the past 23 years working with schools, teachers, administrators in explicit instruction. And we I started coaching in 2003, didn't know what I was doing, and but learned a lot. In 2003, we didn't even call it coaching. We just we would give training and then we'd do support. And so I continue to do that work. not a lot, you know, a couple selected districts and and that's enough. And again, always focused on explicit instruction and working with coaches. You know, now more of my work is working with coaches to get them up to speed to to take over the work.

Shane: Well, it's a, it's a privilege to have you with you. I've been lucky enough to chat with you on the education leaders podcast before. was a great conversation, but I know this is going to be a, super rich conversation. You mentioned they're working on explicit instruction. Jim and I have been on a bit of journey about learning about that for ourselves over the last year or so, and really learning of, the importance of that. So I know Jim's wanted to really pick your, pick your brains through that as we go through today's conversation. So I can see, let me just have a look. There we go. We've got Wayne Reed joining us online. Wayne, it's really great to have you back. know you're a long-term time friend of the show, so it's wonderful to have you here. Please ask questions as we go through. Jim, I wonder what's on your mind?

Jim Thompson: Well, I I've j we're just thrilled to have Gene with us. I I I I I go back a long ways too and back in the eighties I had the privilege of working with Dr. Madeline Hunter, really, who said that that the the biggest determinant of student success are the skills of the teacher. The skills of the teacher and that that really goes to that instructional skill. So I'm just doubly thrilled that we've got Gene with us today. You know, just a a promo of all his books, but this Teach Fast is in in my library. It's dog eared. It's dog

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: eared, and we're gonna talk about that. Gene is written Teach Fast, Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles in Digital Captives, and they're all great books. So Gene, let's let's start off our show with with this question, if I may. In one of your most recent podcasts, you pose this great question. What do new teachers need to know? Jean, could you share some of the thoughts and insights on that for us?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, they need to know a lot. Let's let's just let's just say that. But they can't have it all when they start. You just can't. And so in that podcast, I had two ideas. Number one is that teachers need to know explicit instruction. They need to understand the design of explicit instruction. They don't need to be expert designers initially, but they need to be they need to understand. If they see a lesson generated by AI or in their text or something, they need to be able to evaluate that and how it's going to fit into the structure of a of a good lesson. and if you listen to my podcast at all, that comes up in every podcast. Explicit instruction. Why is that important? I think it's it's a it's a foundational piece. If you're gonna do If you're going to do any sort of inquiry or project based, the people who talk about that, they say, of course there are going to be times when I need to do explicit instruction. The question is, are you going to do it well? Because that's what I that's what I found. Everybody says, I do explicit instruction, but it's it's not done very well. And so that's that's what I think. You know, the that that's one thing they need to know, but they need to know it to fluency level. When we're thinking of the the the hierarchy of of learning, you know, we have to get past acquisition, which happens. That's most of PD. It's just acquisition. I'm gonna talk to you, I'm gonna talk at you for a while, and we never get to that fluency stage where they're practicing doing that. So they need to get to automaticity with explicit instruction. But in addition to that, they need to get to automaticity in all the other areas in which they're, you know, they need to, they need to get fluent in how to bring kids through the door. They need to get fluent in their how they get attention. All of those things need to be, you know, right there for them. So they're not having to think about that. And I think that's that's one of the issues with with pre-service. You know, one of them, we could talk about what should be taught during pre-service, but I think we need to change the conversation to what we're teaching, to what we're training. And I think that's the big thing in the universities. The the professors like to teach, but they don't get into the training, which is the doing, which moves you to fluency and gets you able to do these things every day.

Jim Thompson: I appreciate that. I graduated in Genesis in 1971. I had a great advanced social studies methods professor, but we didn't learn anything about teaching. It his last

Gene Tavernetti: Ha ha

Jim Thompson: class is he says, in order to be a successful high school social studies teacher, you need two things. You need to have ego strength and content knowledge. Okay.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: Okay. so I I you know, I was kind of survival of the fittest when I first started teaching. I'm

Gene Tavernetti: Yes, yes, yes.

Jim Thompson: hearing you so well here and resonating. you know, in next question here, Gene, in in in that great book, Teach Fast, you introduced something called the Fast Framework. Gene, could you share the highlights of this and including how you can help teachers reduce cognitive load for their students? And then a one add-on question. I shouldn't add on, just couldn't shouldn't do it.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, we

Jim Thompson: One thing at a time, but you just do a great job about talking about the importance of modeling and how important modeling is. and for teachers to get to that fluency level. So anything you could give us a a couple of notes about the pe the fast framework, how it reduces cognitive load and the and the and the focus on modeling. Go go ahead, Gene.

Gene Tavernetti: So so I I I have to I have to laugh, Jim, and we can poke fun at each other because similar similar ages. You know, Madeline Hunter. we do trainings now and we'll ask, who knows Madeline Hunter? No, but I mean, you know, so so anyway, people who under people who know Madeline Hunter will take a look at the fast framework and say, yeah, I've seen this before, seven step, five step, whatever it is. What's different about the FAST framework is it was designed to take care of two of the biggest issues that we saw when we observed classrooms. And I don't know, we've observed 20,000 classrooms, I don't know what it is. And that was that lessons took too long. When they when the when the lessons didn't go well, they either took too long or the teacher tried to teach too much. And so what we wanted to do in Teach Fast. was to address those two issues. So one of the things that is different about the FAST framework is that it is very cohesive, very coherent. Every element is tied to at least one element, probably more elements, that allows the teacher to make decisions about not only what goes in the lesson, but what doesn't. So for example, you know, This again, this is not startling information, but you know, we want to be sure that we start with a learning objective and then have the end in mind in our lesson planning. So we want the learning objective to match the independent practice exactly. And during the trainings, we'll say, how does it match? Exactly. Exactly. And we say, you know who doesn't know this? The publishers. Either that or they don't care. And so the idea is to stay focused. And so that's the first the first place we look, you know, to manage cognitive load. And then we talk about that there are some optimal windows of learning. And the idea is that that students have limited attention spans. And what is that attention span? You know, everybody will criticize the research. the research is no good, it's not. you know, one minute per year of age, it's not 10 minutes, et cetera, et cetera. But the reality is a teacher can look at their class and know when the attention is gone. All right. So so we give them a a framework to say you need to present your new content and model within if it's a if it's a kindergarten class, maybe six minutes. Okay. So, what happens if you have to model and teach within six minutes? Again, that means that you better be focused. All of those cute little things you thought you were going to do, all that extraneous load. Okay, we have to get rid of that. And so again, the and then the guided practice is exactly related to the concepts and the modeling. And I mean, and so And then the guided practice is just like the independent practice. So it's a way to be remain focused and to make decisions about about extraneous load. And and to me, doing this work, if that's the only thing that teachers took away from cognitive load is that you're just overwhelming the kids, I'd live with that.

Jim Thompson: Shane, what it get you in here. What are your thoughts on this so far?

Shane: I'm, I'm absolutely loving what what you're saying here, Gene. And I really, what's really come into mind with me, when you were first talking about doing, doing explicit instruction well, and how universities and, does all really so many trainers need to kind of flip from just kind of, kind of telling to really closing what I would say is the no in doing gap, right? Like, actually, We've got a lot of teachers who are kind of like learning a lot of stuff, but it's actually getting them doing it. And the way you talk about it in the practice as well, like the, you know, getting into a lesson, rehearsing it guided practice to help them really focus on those key aspects of what they're doing in, in an explicit instruction and reducing that, that low down. I'm really hearing a lot here about the power of rehearsal.

Gene Tavernetti: And you know, it it's interesting when I talk to very experienced teachers, and I'll say, so what advice do you have for for newer teachers? And they say, you know what? Before I get to school every day, I am rehearsing how I am going to model this. I'm rehearsing how I'm going to say this. These are experienced teachers. There was one teacher, he even wrote the curriculum. And he's because it's so important how you state what you're talking about. You know, stayed it stayed it well, stayed it succeedly.

Jim Thompson: I love the idea of rehearsal. You know, we we don't give pre-service teachers much time for rehearsal. They kind of go live, you know, they they work without a net. So I I appreciate that. Shea, Gene, you know, in the preface to Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Styles, you you say that that that book addresses issues, roadblocks, and fears faced by coaches. Could you share what some of those key issues, roadblocks and fears faced by coaches are and maybe offering insights as that Paul McCartney song, How do you take a sad song and make it better?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, hey Jim. Don't okay, so boy, how long is this podcast? So I'm gonna start with you know I talked to T I talk to coaches all over the country and they have the very same issues. They have the very same issues wherever whoever I talk to. And most of them the issues, and I don't have a percentage, are Due to something dumb an administrator has done. And I'm convinced, and and I'm and I'm convinced the the reason the administrator does that is that coaching is such a new thing. You know, is is as and like in the in the US, there are you're just instructional coaches. That's your job. You know, it used to be you're a principal, you were supposed to be the instructional coach, the job got to be too big, so then we got APs, and then you know. And then it finally came down to instructional coaches. But I don't think I've ever talked to an instructional coach who wasn't trying to get out of that job as quickly as they could because they were so miserable. And I'm going to say it's because the principal never got good enough to understand what was necessary and what was possible. So let me let me give you let me give you an example. and this is going to be one that I'm sure many people disagree with. And that is that if if the coach, if you have a coach, they should be working with everybody on staff. And so the only way to do that is for the principal to say, You're gonna you're gonna meet with the coach. You're gonna meet with the coach for a coaching cycle. And but That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen because administrators don't want to deal with the teachers lined up at their door at the end of the day saying, Why do I need to do it? I'm a veteran teacher. I know what I'm doing. I'm a professional. Yada yada yada. So I think there's a fear component from the administrator, but also not only a fear component, but they don't, they're not. emotionally invested in the fact that a coach can help a teacher get better. And and and and here and here's thing. Let's say let's say Shane is a beginning teacher. Jim's a veteran teacher. I I think of coaching of staff is like an MTSS. They're different levels. My my work with Shane is going to be more intensive. My work with Jim is not going to be as intensive but I still need to meet with you to understand how you think, how you can contribute to the staff. I may want to bring Shane in, you know, if if Jim was was was open to it to see how you do some things. You know, so so it's important for the coach as a surrogate leader for making the staff better to coach to coach everybody. So I don't believe in the in the volunteer thing. And and here's and here's what happens to the poor coaches. The poor coaches, they're thinking of all these strategies. You know, like like how can I get more people? How can I get more people to work? I talk to coaches, they have a full-time salary, they make work with half the teachers on staff. And say, that's not a problem if the principal says you're going to work with everybody. But if the principal hasn't, then you know what happens? Here's a menu. Hey teachers, here's a menu of services. Which one would you like? Shane doesn't know what he needs, you know. And so so that gets to the next piece that the how the administrator can can put gum in the works. And that is that every every school I know collects data. And at the end of the year, they analyze data. And they come up, you know, through some collaborative process, through a leadership team, or just at a staff meeting. And they decide what their areas of focus are gonna be for the next year. So the principal says everybody's going to meet with the coach. These are our areas of focus. And if you do that, now the coach has a chance to provide some feedback to a teacher. And the teacher not say, well, that's your opinion. Well, you know, I don't like to do it that way. But that's what we agreed to do. So those are some big things. And of course, the fear of the coaches. Is is they're they're afraid, like, how do I start a conversation? What if the lesson wasn't any good? How do I work with a veteran teacher? I mean, you know, the and and the questions are the same whether I've worked with with coaches who have been through previous training or they've had no training. And those are exactly the right questions to have.

Jim Thompson: Love it, love it. Gene, I love your insights here. We've got another question, and we'll have G Shane jump in here though as we're winding down. Just love the morning here. Gene, you authored a book called Digital Captives, Helping Schools Strike a Balance Between the Human and the Hardware. Well, I I listened to the news just this morning, and 80 fur percent of Morning Joe was about AI and how crazy this is going on. So Now that we're well into this age of AI gene, where are we now in striking that balance between the human and the hardware? And is that even possible?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, first of all, I don't want to steal any valor. I'm a co-author of that of that book with Dr. Frank Rodriguez and Dr. Donna Smith. And where are we? I gotta go back to my first answer of what teachers need to know. They need to know explicit instruction. They need to know instruction. Because one of the things we talk about in that book is that schools have to have and districts have to have some sort of filter in which they make decisions about platforms that are being used. We're working in one district. there are the 712 district. I don't know how that translates to Shanghai International, but but and anyway, and we have we went through every classroom, and there were more than 15 different platforms being used. And administration had no idea about that. They hadn't walked through the classrooms like like we had done, like that. And most of the platforms. were being used to provide instruction kn to let me say to replace instruction. versus what I think the you know what the technology should be doing is helping with practice. So how are we doing? That's where we start. I think I think we cannot get away from everybody needing to understand explicit instruction, how to do it well, where the technology fits, because otherwise one person's opinion is is as good as the other's.

Jim Thompson: Shane, your thoughts on this so far?

Shane: I mean, apart from the fact, you've done so much and you think in so many different areas. This is wonderful to get an insight. I was really, really struck by that kind of first point you were saying about the fear of really fully investing in coaching for everyone in schools. then because of all those challenges that you raise that people might fear, you know, what about those teachers who resist? What about, you know, what if coaches are asking, what do I do with this? What do I do with that? But they were all good. They were all good questions. And I'm always kind of drawn in this conversation to the comparison with some other professions where no one would dream that just because you've been in the profession for a few years would mean that you're not, you're not kind of being challenged to improve like, know, surgeons, you know, with latest tools and techniques and constantly still being observed and like, and checked and kind of coached like with the wonderful work of Attaw Goandi or let's say psychologists and counselors, you know, doing regular supervision session where they're constantly having to reflect on their practice and saying what's worked, what's not. I, I sometimes feel like education is left behind some of those professions where we're, where we sometimes so resistant to the idea of getting better.

Gene Tavernetti: I think some of the language we use gets in the way. you know, like like,

Jim Thompson: Hmm.

Gene Tavernetti: you know, I agree with you with all those comparisons. Teachers may not. we're different. And and

Shane: Yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: you are different. The other thing that the word that's used so much is professionals. Teachers are professionals. Yes, they are. I believe it. And I think of like you know, baseball players in the US, they may be a high school phenom. Who gets drafted, they give him a big signing bonus, and he goes to the lowest level, he goes to A-level baseball to get intensive coaching. They didn't give him that bonus for what he is now. They gave him that bonus for what he's going to become. He's still a professional. And then and then you move up and there's more coaching. And you don't think, I mean, you take a look at a professional baseball game, they got eight coaches in the dugout because they're working every day with people to get better. So the idea of what it means to be a professional, I Glenn Whitman tells a story about when he was hired at St. Help Me Out, St. Andrews. When he was hired at St. Andrews, the person who hired him, they were doing the interview, and Glenn asked, What do you expect from me this year? And his principal said, that you get better by the end of the year. That's a professional. I, you know. And I would not ask a teacher to get better unless I believe that they could, because they're a professional. And and and you know, you know, and and it's it's almost cliche. If you're on a team and the coach never talks to you, that's not a good thing, because they don't believe in you. I bel I believe that all the teachers, you know, can can be better.

Shane: I wonder, Gene, if there's links to this question that's been raised by Wayne, who's one of our listeners, who's put it, he's put a few comments in. I'll read one of them. He's most recently said, feel that being put into a coaching program is related to performance and that's the real fear. Do you encounter that? And is that kind of linked to what you're saying?

Gene Tavernetti: the ad administrators, okay. Here's another way administrators screw up. All right. They will say this is what the coaching is for. This is for, you know, I talked to a coach the other day. She's going to work with half the staff because those are the ones that had been identified as needing support. How in the world is she going to be able to translate that to others? And then there's other then there's other things, Shane and and these coach, these teachers who don't want to be coached, you know, people say, they're resistant, they're resistant. Hey, listen to what they have to say. Their concerns are real. They've had really bad coaching in the past. Their their time has been wasted. And, you know, and you need to listen to what they have to say. Now, sometimes it's not easy. I gotta go back to Madeline Hunter for a second, Jim. You know. There was a teacher who this was this was God probably 15, 20 years ago when this happened. But one of my colleagues was was working with a teacher, and we always during that coaching cycle, we always have a joint planning session to talk about what the teacher is going to be doing. And this teacher was having none of it. And she said, you know, when Madeline Hunter died. I brought a cake to school the next day. Now, she went in, she did the lesson, and when that happens, you know, we'll tell the teacher, hey, just do what you're gonna do. You know, just do what you're gonna do, and then we'll talk about that after. The next day when she came in, she apologized. But she needed to get that off her chest. And we're a that's a fear we have that people are going to express why they don't want to do this. It's legit. I mean, most of the things are legit. One of the things I do, I always ask teachers after a training, the first time we meet for a coaching cycle, is that is there anything that you disagreed with? You didn't, you know, it's just, that didn't work, or you know, and this guy, he veteran teacher folds his arms and he says, I don't want to be that critical. And I said, No, I'm inviting you to be critical. And you know what happens most of the time. Again, it's past experience or something that was misunderstood. But you can't be afraid to ask, you know, we can we don't need a, you know, an inventory to find out why the teacher doesn't want to be there. We can just ask them.

Jim Thompson: Right, right. Can I just ask one more question before we sum it up? I just love this morning to have you on again, Gene, but I'm gonna steal this from Michael Bunga Stanier, who w his new question for this year is now what do you believe to be true? So Gene, you know, you've been you've been at this for a while. You've got a depth and breadth of experience, you've got perspective. what do you now believe to be true about the idea and ideal of Coaching done.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, let's get back to the assumption again that coaching hasn't been done well. It's been a one and done. Even if that's a even if it's a wonderful PD, it doesn't matter. I'll give you a story, Jim. I don't know if you ever tell stories, but so we were working with a cohort that we had trained. It was the end of the year. We they had been through a couple days of training, they went through three coaching cycles. And these were people who had really embraced what we were doing, embraced the work, and they were going to present lessons at a district-wide PD so that teachers could come in and see sample lessons taught by the teachers. And so we asked them, said, when did you decide that what we are selling you wanted to buy? You know, what when did it happen? One teacher said the second day of training. Another teacher said the second coaching cycle. Another teacher said, when we realized that this was not going away and that the district was committed and that this was different. So so what do I what do I believe now is how important it is for the district, the site, administration. not to get in the way and to take some advice on how to support it. And that goes a long way to making the program successful.

Jim Thompson: just wonderful. Shane, some of your wrap up thoughts as we end the time with this fabulous guest.

Shane: I agree with you, Jim. Jim, you have to come on again if we if we can if we can will you out of bed at 3am again and you're willing like it will

Gene Tavernetti: Ha ha ha.

Shane: be wonderful. This has been a really great conversation. And that one thing that comes to mind for me is like, you you said it really early, you talked about explicit instruction. And when it's done well, do it well. And this show is called coaching done well as well. And I think this is a A constant reminder that just because we say we're coaching, just because we say we're teaching, just because we say we're explicit instruction, there's always room to do it better and to think about how well am I doing this and like, where can I look? I'm so grateful to people like you, and your brilliant podcast, your books, like anyone who needs to, everyone who's listening, go check out some of Gene's stuff. We'll make sure that we include a load of this in the show notes to the podcast on the Coaching Dunwell feed.

Gene Tavernetti: Appreciate that.

Shane: which will be wonderful. I wonder like any closing reflections, Jim, Jean, before we close out the show today.

Jim Thompson: Well, you know, I had a mentor, Dr. Harry Fadouski. He was New York State Elementary Principal here, then he later nominated me, and I was lucky to get that. And he said, J Jim, there there there's sizzle and there's steak. There's a lot of sizzle out there, Jim, but there's not a hell of lot of steak. And he says, Look for the steak. Look for the steak and go after

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: that. Well we had prime rib this morning here in New York State. Prime

Gene Tavernetti: Ha ha ha.

Jim Thompson: rib. Great, great craft.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Jim Thompson: Imagine wisdom from Jean.

Gene Tavernetti: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But and my last comment, if if you call yourself an instructional coach, remember instruction is the first part of that title. That's what you're focused on. That's what you're focused on. And so, and that's what teachers want. They want things that are going to help them get better. And and what I tell I tell new coaches all the time, I said, you're operating on second spouse theory. You don't have to be perfect, just better than the first one. And so it's a blessing. It's a blessing if they've had bad coaching before.

Shane: Wise words, wise words

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Shane: indeed. Thank you, thank you so much. This has been a great show.

Jim Thompson: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Gene.

Gene Tavernetti: My my pleasure. Thank you. Thank

Jim Thompson: We mean something. Thank you.

Gene Tavernetti: you, fellas.

Shane: And thank you to those who have tuned in as well. Wayne, it was wonderful to have your comments. I know that a few of you were tuning in live and many of you, of course, will be tuning in on the Coaching Dunwell feed, which you will notice a slight change because we are really excited. Tomorrow, there are going to be a big launch. We mentioned a few episodes ago, Coaching Dunwell is now part of the Education Leaders podcast network. And the podcast network is now launching with five podcasts, five different podcasts, some want to do with coaching, one on leadership, one on current events, one on all sorts of different ideas and teaching practices and even learning from other sectors what we can bring into education. We've got five powerful podcasts as part of the network. We've got a launch event. you go to LinkedIn, search education leaders. We've got a launch event tomorrow and coaching done well. We're really proud me and Jen to be on that network. And not only that, but to actually be sharing our feed in the future with another great coaching podcast, which is Coaching Unpacked with brilliant Sarah Cottinghat and Adam Korbeck who are friends of the show where they in each episode actually show coaching live. They film a real coaching setting coaching conversation. in a real school and deconstruct it. And it's really, really powerful listening. So if you are subscribed to this feed, you will also get subscription to that second feed. And I just know you're going to love it. So if you fancy joining us for the launch tomorrow, come and join us for that. Some amazing podcasts on that. Me and Jim will both be there and we're both super excited about this. but for now, thank you so much for tuning in to coaching done well. have got an amazing season ahead.

Jim Thompson: Thank you, Jean. Thank you, Jean.

Gene Tavernetti: Thank you, fellas. It's been great.

Shane: Cheers, Gene. Thank you so much. Bye

Jim Thompson: Yeah.

Shane: bye now.